What is it for a Neurergus??
Markus
Those look like the N.derjugini that was showed in Gersfeld this year. Where did you get that picture?
Ow now that I see your juvenile picture I'm pretty sure this is microspilotus ;D Great!
The Neurergus on your picture is a Neurergus crocatus. Can you tell us where your animals are from?
Willi
Citaat van: anapsid op december 12, 2010, 04:40:33 PM
The Neurergus on your picture is a Neurergus crocatus. Can you tell us where your animals are from?
Willi
I never saw orange spots behind the eyes on crocatus? Nor did I see irregular, ovale shaped spots on them. So I really think this is microspilotus? I can be wrong though but they do look 100% like the juveniles Günther had pictures from.
The picture from the young Neurergus is 100% not N. crocatus. They are a young N. derjugini. And think not, that the first is a crocatus is.
Markus
It sure looks a lot like N. derjugini, Do you have some belly shots? I'm not entirely sure what the determination points are...but the blended spots are, I think, pretty unique for N. derjugini.
I am pretty sure that the adult Neurergus is a Neurergus crocatus (jpg 16 and 4). I did not refer to the juvenile animal. For a definitive identification a picture of the underside would be helpfull.
Willi
The dark is drawing by the species until well into the belly. By crocatus the belly is very orange. The dark drawing stops on the side.
Markus
Both animals are Neurergus crocatus. There is a high variation in different populations of this species. The crocatus with the ''very orange'' belly pattern (2jpg, crocatus jpg) is characteristic of animals from around Aqrah.
Willi
That the animal from the 2. picture a crocatus from Aqrah is thati know too. But the other Neurergus has not the drawing as a crocatus.
Citaat van: Markus op december 12, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
The dark is drawing by the species until well into the belly. By crocatus the belly is very orange. The dark drawing stops on the side.
Markus
I also think its N.crocatus ..
look at this pictures http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.crocatus/N.croc.adult.Erweiterung.htm
The dark drawing seems te be simelar like your species picture ..
Also you can see verry good on picture 3, that salamander have got some spots in his neck
They see from above, but different as crocatus. The drawing is different.
Markus
I still think microspilotus...The irregular shapes of the dots, the orange speckles behind the head of the juvenile. Maybe Sergé can shed some light over it. If I remember correctly you need to see the lip-region to differenciate microspilotus to derjugini in adult specimens.
http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.microspilotus/NEURERGUS.MICROSPILOTUS.htm (http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.microspilotus/NEURERGUS.MICROSPILOTUS.htm)
I agree with Willi.
They are both crocatus, but from different populations. And I know that a german (NOT a newt specialist, but more into spiders and reptiles) has been in Iraq this Spring. So he was there before the two german research groups (Fleck et al. and Schneider & Schneider). By the way Fleck has just published data and pictures in Elaphe.
This german has offered two groups of some animals on the internet and on markets. The first group were from Aqrah. These are for us "typical ones" also bred by me and which have large yellow spots in adults, but not in juveniles! The spots grow as the animals mature. The other animals he sold were from the north of Iraq and are very similar to the ones shown from SE Turkey by father and son Schneider in their Herpetozoa paper. The animals shown here must be these animals from the north of Iraq from this second group?
We just begin to discover the variety between populations of N. crocatus and it seems that the variety is much higher. But then again, this is also true for Neurergus strauchii. But without locality the animals are useless for science nor for captive breeding projects.
Thank you for the info Sergè. :D
Markus
this of course is an actual problem! First let me say it is not possible to determine the species N. crocatus, microspilotus, derjugini only by their colour pattern. The pictures you show remind strongly to N. crocatus. But this is a weak statement not knowing their origin. All those black/yellow Neuergus have very different patterns from population to population.
(If you look straight to the mouth of N. crocatus you will find the whole lower jaw jellow. This is characteristic for the animals I have. I did not find this in other Neurergus but I cannot say if this is common in all populations.)
We have to be patient until we get the genetics.
Besides I by myself am a little sceptic if N. derjugini/microspilotus are really two species. As I heard first from Fleck I was convinced they found N. derjugini. But in Gersfeld I had a look at them. As I am one of the few who worked on N. microsilotus I know this species well and I could not find the difference to N. derjugini. This does not mean so much but I think we will have a suprise when the genetics are published.
Günter S
www.salamanderland.at (http://www.salamanderland.at)
Hey Jeroen, leuk dat je meedenkt.
Is Salamanderland op de hoogte van het feit dat je zijn email online ging posten? Zo nee, doe dat dan even voor de volledigheid aub.
Nee dat niet. Ik heb hem verteld dat we in een discussie waren over dit onderwerp. Samen met de link van dit onderwerp. Het zal wel geen probleem zijn maar ik zal het hem wel even doorgeven en bedanken :).